...but I'm still in.
AAA LPs Vs. 96/24 AAD LPs What Can We Hear? Update
The tentative musical choice is the very well-regarded Vox-Turnabout 1967 production of Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances & Vocalise with Donald Johanos conducting the Dallas Symphony orchestra. This has long been considered an "audiophile classic".
The recording in the McFarlin Auditorium on the campus of Southern Methodist University was engineered by David B. Hancock using four custom ribbon microphones and recorded to 30IPS two track tape. The tape remains in remarkably good condition.
The original was well produced, but unfortunately pressed on inferior quality vinyl—it was a budget label project, which makes it all the more remarkable that such attention and care went into the recording.
There was a late '80s reissue by Athena Records, but the double 45rpm edition issued by Analogue Productions (AAPC34145-45) mastered by Kevin Gray is far superior (though I've heard some grumbling about side 4 over-modulation that will not affect this project).
Side 1 has enormous dynamic swings, huge bass drum "thwacks" and a full symphonic blast of colors and textures set upon a wide and deep soundstage. In other words, pretty much everything you'd want to hear compared AAA to ADA in terms of tonality, spatiality and overall transparency. It's also exciting music even if you're not "classically inclined".
So unless there's a lot of objecting from readers the plan is to produce a 45rpm record containing the first eleven minutes ("Non allegro") all-analog on one side and on the other, the same selection but cut from digital files. Depending upon what's possible, the digital file will either be 96/24 for all of it, or it will switch at some point to DSD. The only problem is that whichever is closer to the inner grooves will be at somewhat of a sonic disadvantage. However, my feeling is that listeners can work around that assuming there is a noticeable difference.
The record will be cut by Kevin Gray at Cohearant Audio from the original master tape (the AAA version has already been cut and plated for the AAA Analogue Production edition) so Kevin will again get the tape, digitize it and cut the side again. Plating and pressing will be at QRP and the record will be available for sale on the Acoustic Sounds website.
That is the plan for now with the final cost to be determined by a number of factors including possible royalty payments to the tape's owner and a potential minimum pressing requirement by the tape's owner.
So what do you think of that?
- Log in or register to post comments
Can the sides be unlabeled? So that we don't know which side is analog and which is digital. And give us a good amount of time (month or so) before revealing.
I just fear somehow it will get leaked...like what happened with the last Harry Potter book LOL
For $15-$20 I'm in.
You said that the AAA side is already pressed and plated... so Kevin's scribes are already there and going to be in the deadwax.
Is the plan to have him scribe the exact same thing on the digitally sourced cut? The whole thing will be pointless (and costly!) if the shootout can not be truly "blind".
If you had to conservatively guess a price window, what would you think it might be?
I'll buy that! You should do a series. Would you consider doing a shorter sample and multiple digital masters on a single gel side in an apparently random order?
Maybe down the road you can do some other comparative records to show dynamic range, frequency response, etc. Maybe speed modulations.
All in all, sounds like a fun project at a good price.
Just got my copy, amazing job from all concerned QRP pressing is great. Dogs barking dead center, Just wondering if this is the stereo mix or the Q Sound mix. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say when you get a chance to review this.
...One for playing and one for the "archives"
Maybe you should offer signed copies at a premium?
Michael, will the master analog be transferred to digital at 24/96 or 24/192 then down sampled? I was just curious, although it probably won't make much difference. Those Pacific Microsonics converters he uses are to die for.
For $20? That's not a lot for a good learning experience. Count me in.
This is a no-brainer. Thanks for setting it up -- looking forward to it!
Thanks for putting all this work in! Hopefully this will all fall in line and budget! Looking forward to updates! Cheers!
That this is now especially interesting and even important - at least for me and other classical fans. Because Universal under the Decca, DG and Mercury Living Presence labels are releasing vinyl at a rate that bears comparison with the late 70s. Just in the last 18 months there must have been more than 100 new pressings. Look at the Acoustic Sounds website and there are batches and batches of it month after month. The reissues are all from digital masters that were in turn mastered from the analogue originals. So this exercise will give potential buyers a much closer idea of what they are missing by buying these titles and saving a few dollars over the "true" analogue titles.
This is still with the caveats I mentioned in the other thread but now I have a lot more interest in this than I did before.
One thing: I hope we know precisely the technical details of the ADA "loop" for the "digital" side - right down to the specific models used and the settings. This is extremely important.
I think this is really cool. Thanks! I'm in!
Definitely in.
Prefer you dont make it obvious which side is most popular from the summary on your website. Some of us who live in the middle of nowhere (aka Australia) might take a while to get their copy ;)
Awesome idea, would really appreciate the DSD. Even if you had to do 3-4 sides.
Am in Australia and I now by my stuff from a shop that cleans the records for me on an Audio Desk cleaner before I get them. And yes, it takes us around a month to get stuff once released in the US - sometimes less but sometimes more.
And that DSD suggestion for a third side is an excellent idea. I'm not that enthusiastic about the ADA side swapping between PCM and DSD "randomly". I would really like to hear three separate comparisons even if it costs more because I am really dying to hear the differences between the three processes. So sides as follows:
1. AAA
2. A - ADC (PCM) - DAC (PCM) - A
3 A - ADC (DSD) - DAC (DSD) - A
4. Teddy Bears Picnic :)
I'm assuming the reference to the symphonic colors and textures include ultrasonic frequencies. If so, I'm certainly in.
Sounds like fun. Hope it will be available in Germany...
NO BRAINER.....I'M IN! Looking forward to it. Sadly, this won't change the "digital is perfect" close minded people, but it will sure be a fun experiment.
Can we pre-order?
If you decide to include DSD in the second half of side B, you could print the same last section of the music as on side A, that way a direct comparison of A/B with either digi format would allow to compare the same music selection at the same distance into the record and have similar distortion on both formats making the comparison fair.
However! If you include 2 digi formated tracks on one side, it will be obvious which is the digital side!
I have no trouble believing that Kevin Gray's 45rpm cut bests the Athena. But, when the Athena came out it was the best sounding record I'd ever heard. I bought a half dozen copies, though classical isn't really my thing.
15$ to 20$ is a great price for something as unique as this record. However the cost of postage form USA to UK can double this cost. I'm still in though.
I have two copies of this! one is noisy the other is warped, I really would like to get good copy of this performance!
I see a problem. Too many variables. How would you know the feed from the analog tape will match the feed from the original cut? If you want to reduce variables I think you need to cut a new all analog lacquer, and from the same exact feed make the hi res digital copy, then turn around and immediately cut the other lacquer from that copy making sure the levels are exactly matched.
Finally, someone who knows what they're talking about. I'm guessing you're a professional and not just an internet expert. :-)
If the AAA side is highly preferred over the digital side, I'm hoping this will send a message to record companies that going the all analog route is worth the extra effort/cost.
Sadly, even if it sounds so much better as to beggar belief, I doubt it would compel labels to release AAA vinyl more in order to directly influence sales. That said, for the nerds here, it would clearly behoove labels to provide us with high-quality AAA pressings - AND TELL US ABOUT IT - because clearly there is a market for that.
They may have to rip us off for it to be viable, but I think many of us still would still buy the stuff...with a grimace.
But the public has proven themselves much more amenable to cheap and convenient over good quality. Basically, don't hold your breath for that AAA Iggy Azalea pressing.
I will buy this record as soon as it becomes available.
Count me in too - and I;m sure a few buds will go for it as well.
I think it's great of you to do this, apparently, blind comparison. I'll wait to see how, or if, it remains fair throughout the listening tests. I fear that somehow this test will be compromised. So far, none of Mr. Fremer's listening tests have been adequate. There's always some sort of issue, like mismatched levels, alignment variables, whatever. There's always trouble with the finer details that throw off results.
But... this test has a few too many variables already. And doing the digital cut months after(!) the analog cut is less than ideal. The tape machine alignments will not be identical. The mastering will not be identical. The cutting and plating will not be identical, and we all know the digital stage will get blamed for any shortcomings, when this test doesn't allow us to know for sure.
The only way it will be a fair test is if you recut the analog side on the same day with the same azimuth and the same noise in the power grid, and other variables.
It was mastered by Doug Sax. Is it really so bad?
I'm very interested in a copy as well.
DSD and PCM have very different sonic signatures. A direct unfiltered DSD rip of an analogue master tape can sound wonderful, while even the highest-resolution PCM tends to impose a sonic signature on the tape. I believe this is due to anti-aliasing filters causing pre-ringing.
Now do you begin this as a crowd source project to see if it will fly? Curious as to how many adopters you will need for the record to be say $15 or $20 or $30 or $50. I assume you are waiting for a quote from parties that need to be involved.
Cheers and again thanks for your hard work going into this.
My first post after stalking for months - count me in!
You have piqued my interest. Thanks for pioneering this effort.
Just tell me where to send the money.
This will be $20 - $30 Cdn + shipping and duty but i'm still in. It's called putting your money where your mouth is and i'm all but sure that there will be a difference and it will be AAA all the way! To some there won't be a big enough difference to care but for most of us who come to this site there will be.Thanks for doing this for us.
Hope we can get it in Australia for a reasonable price. Would love to see if I can hear what I think I can hear.
The comparison of PCM vs DSD would also be informative, regardless of the inner vs. outer groove distortions. Documentation of the mastering chain would be good to know, but only after the feedback is tabulated.
I've never heard this recording and I just recently started listening to classical music. I'm in!